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	<title>Comments on: See, Wheels Are Round</title>
	<atom:link href="http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/</link>
	<description>The mental ramblings of Sanya Weathers</description>
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		<title>By: Slyfeind</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1784</link>
		<dc:creator>Slyfeind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1784</guid>
		<description>The film industry in Alaska consists of a lot of people trying to reinvent the wheel like that, and a lot of films don&#039;t get finished. Then someone comes up from Hollywood, gets a day job, but still loves doing film, and in his evenings and weekends he makes a damn movie from start to finish. It&#039;s going to take a few people like that in the gaming industry. People have got to love it enough to take those pay cuts, in order for more good games to get done.

We&#039;re starting to see &quot;Theatre experience a plus&quot; on job descriptions for producers and directors. I&#039;d dig up a link but I&#039;m lazy. I&#039;ve noticed striking similarites between the duties of producers, and the duties of stage managers. The two trades are similar in very general terms; at the very least, collaborative and creative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The film industry in Alaska consists of a lot of people trying to reinvent the wheel like that, and a lot of films don&#8217;t get finished. Then someone comes up from Hollywood, gets a day job, but still loves doing film, and in his evenings and weekends he makes a damn movie from start to finish. It&#8217;s going to take a few people like that in the gaming industry. People have got to love it enough to take those pay cuts, in order for more good games to get done.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re starting to see &#8220;Theatre experience a plus&#8221; on job descriptions for producers and directors. I&#8217;d dig up a link but I&#8217;m lazy. I&#8217;ve noticed striking similarites between the duties of producers, and the duties of stage managers. The two trades are similar in very general terms; at the very least, collaborative and creative.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelryck</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1783</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelryck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1783</guid>
		<description>First of all, Hi Sanya!  Long time since I had you on my radio show.. so much has changed.

As for the DOT anaolgy, much of the time government agencies are hamstrung by their own state/federal requirements to have all the bells and whistles for prevailing wages, minority owned busineses participation, mandatory profit levels, review cycles, inspections, etc (as well as regular dog and pony shows to let the Prime know everything is on track (or not)).  That adds an incredible amount of time and cost to any project.

Often times it was easier and faster to do things on Internal company money and sell it to the government as a finished product (like it seems Intel did).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, Hi Sanya!  Long time since I had you on my radio show.. so much has changed.</p>
<p>As for the DOT anaolgy, much of the time government agencies are hamstrung by their own state/federal requirements to have all the bells and whistles for prevailing wages, minority owned busineses participation, mandatory profit levels, review cycles, inspections, etc (as well as regular dog and pony shows to let the Prime know everything is on track (or not)).  That adds an incredible amount of time and cost to any project.</p>
<p>Often times it was easier and faster to do things on Internal company money and sell it to the government as a finished product (like it seems Intel did).</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1782</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1782</guid>
		<description>I would have to agree with Matt that &quot;you can deduce that everyone in game development is incompetent&quot;…mostly anyway.  Of course those involved in the debacles would never admit incompetence and would always have grand excuses.


I thought it curiously funny, in a sad way, when I often read about public projects that are running over budget and take longer than expected.  The excuses are always numerous.

Then I watch a PBS special about the construction of a mulit-billion dollar building in Manhattan and at the shows end we find that the building comes in just a bit early and just under the original budget (I guess a bridge or such is just so much more complex than the 100+ story multi billion dollar skyscraper).


A few years ago Intel decided to build a factory near where I live.  The government approved but only if Intel also built a new off/on ramp for the freeway (the existing ramp could not handle the amount of predicted traffic).

Intel agreed and asked the DOT (Department of Transportation) for a cost estimate/bid.  When DOT got around to giving the bid, Intel was dumbfounded by the high cost estimate and the lengthy time the project would take.

Intel went out for privet bids and found that reputable companies were bidding the project at half the cost and haft the time that was bid by the DOT crew.

DOT said that the privet bids were impossible and must have been flawed.

A privet company ended up building a grand series of ramps designed for higher traffic flow than the small old ramp (actually very nice looking as far as freeway ramps are concerned).  They built the ramps on time and on the original budget.  When the DOT was asked by the press to comment on the huge discrepancy between the DOT&#039;s bid and the privet companies actually accomplishment....the DOT said it was a fluke occurrence. (A great deal of testing and overview showed the company that did the work met all required specs.)



Excuses for incompetence are never ending.  Also, the MMO industry is no longer in its infancy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have to agree with Matt that &#8220;you can deduce that everyone in game development is incompetent&#8221;…mostly anyway.  Of course those involved in the debacles would never admit incompetence and would always have grand excuses.</p>
<p>I thought it curiously funny, in a sad way, when I often read about public projects that are running over budget and take longer than expected.  The excuses are always numerous.</p>
<p>Then I watch a PBS special about the construction of a mulit-billion dollar building in Manhattan and at the shows end we find that the building comes in just a bit early and just under the original budget (I guess a bridge or such is just so much more complex than the 100+ story multi billion dollar skyscraper).</p>
<p>A few years ago Intel decided to build a factory near where I live.  The government approved but only if Intel also built a new off/on ramp for the freeway (the existing ramp could not handle the amount of predicted traffic).</p>
<p>Intel agreed and asked the DOT (Department of Transportation) for a cost estimate/bid.  When DOT got around to giving the bid, Intel was dumbfounded by the high cost estimate and the lengthy time the project would take.</p>
<p>Intel went out for privet bids and found that reputable companies were bidding the project at half the cost and haft the time that was bid by the DOT crew.</p>
<p>DOT said that the privet bids were impossible and must have been flawed.</p>
<p>A privet company ended up building a grand series of ramps designed for higher traffic flow than the small old ramp (actually very nice looking as far as freeway ramps are concerned).  They built the ramps on time and on the original budget.  When the DOT was asked by the press to comment on the huge discrepancy between the DOT&#8217;s bid and the privet companies actually accomplishment&#8230;.the DOT said it was a fluke occurrence. (A great deal of testing and overview showed the company that did the work met all required specs.)</p>
<p>Excuses for incompetence are never ending.  Also, the MMO industry is no longer in its infancy.</p>
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		<title>By: bullet</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1781</link>
		<dc:creator>bullet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 17:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1781</guid>
		<description>Awesome post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome post.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1780</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1780</guid>
		<description>Well, if you only take the known likely problems into account, you&#039;ll definitely ship late. :)

I doubt anyone&#039;s really &quot;mystified that X happened and delayed a smooth and timely launch&quot;.  They know it&#039;s coming.  They&#039;re just getting tons of pressure to put a brave face on and get the game out there making money ASAP.  Maybe the publisher&#039;s mystified, because the developer&#039;s been showing them hacked-together demos for ages.  Then again, the pub knows that, so they&#039;re probably not mystified either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you only take the known likely problems into account, you&#8217;ll definitely ship late. <img src='http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I doubt anyone&#8217;s really &#8220;mystified that X happened and delayed a smooth and timely launch&#8221;.  They know it&#8217;s coming.  They&#8217;re just getting tons of pressure to put a brave face on and get the game out there making money ASAP.  Maybe the publisher&#8217;s mystified, because the developer&#8217;s been showing them hacked-together demos for ages.  Then again, the pub knows that, so they&#8217;re probably not mystified either.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1779</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1779</guid>
		<description>But if these problems are inevitable, why not plan the project to take the known likely problems into account, instead of being eternally and repeatedly mystified that X happened and delayed a smooth and timely launch?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But if these problems are inevitable, why not plan the project to take the known likely problems into account, instead of being eternally and repeatedly mystified that X happened and delayed a smooth and timely launch?</p>
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		<title>By: Da Newz - June 5 &#171; Waaagh! A Warhammer Online Blog</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1778</link>
		<dc:creator>Da Newz - June 5 &#171; Waaagh! A Warhammer Online Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1778</guid>
		<description>[...] doesn&#8217;t have so much to do with WAR as it does MMO development as a whole, but I love this article over at Eating Bees like I love my non-existent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] doesn&#8217;t have so much to do with WAR as it does MMO development as a whole, but I love this article over at Eating Bees like I love my non-existent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1777</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1777</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m currently contracting with a company that has a very qualified president, several great producers (all on one project), a reasonable and knowledgeable design team, an art team that can deliver on-time consistently, a full-time QA staff from day one, low-ego high-talent programmers, and on and on.

They&#039;re using the best software dev techniques they could find from outside the gamedev world.  They&#039;re very responsive to where those techniques don&#039;t match up with the different demands of game development, and adapt them where possible.

And it&#039;s still really difficult.  They have none of the problems you named in your rant, and it&#039;s still impossible to create an ambitious, exciting, potentially successful game in a predictable fashion.

I&#039;m not saying the companies you&#039;re referring to aren&#039;t addressing their perceived problems in the worst, most counterproductive way (fuck reason, work everyone to the bone!).  I&#039;m saying the solutions are a lot harder than you&#039;re suggesting.

Software development methodologies, in general, are still pretty rough.  Game development methodologies lag behind those sub-par ones by roughly a generation.  So even the most intelligent and well-educated process managers are still going to be experimenting as they go.  Of course, it exacerbates the problem that many companies aren&#039;t experimenting with process, and aren&#039;t trying anything other than &quot;work harder, ignore the problem and hope it goes away&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m currently contracting with a company that has a very qualified president, several great producers (all on one project), a reasonable and knowledgeable design team, an art team that can deliver on-time consistently, a full-time QA staff from day one, low-ego high-talent programmers, and on and on.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re using the best software dev techniques they could find from outside the gamedev world.  They&#8217;re very responsive to where those techniques don&#8217;t match up with the different demands of game development, and adapt them where possible.</p>
<p>And it&#8217;s still really difficult.  They have none of the problems you named in your rant, and it&#8217;s still impossible to create an ambitious, exciting, potentially successful game in a predictable fashion.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying the companies you&#8217;re referring to aren&#8217;t addressing their perceived problems in the worst, most counterproductive way (fuck reason, work everyone to the bone!).  I&#8217;m saying the solutions are a lot harder than you&#8217;re suggesting.</p>
<p>Software development methodologies, in general, are still pretty rough.  Game development methodologies lag behind those sub-par ones by roughly a generation.  So even the most intelligent and well-educated process managers are still going to be experimenting as they go.  Of course, it exacerbates the problem that many companies aren&#8217;t experimenting with process, and aren&#8217;t trying anything other than &#8220;work harder, ignore the problem and hope it goes away&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1776</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1776</guid>
		<description>Thankfully, the actual customers who patronize MMOs are actually speaking out about this kind of thing more often than not, and while you definitely have to sift through the usual nonsense to get to some legitimate points, launch stability is a greater and greater concern to players.

The companies are sort of getting it. They are definitely in a mode where they are thinking &quot;if we release and it sucks ass, we&#039;re fucked&quot;, which is why you see more pushbacks more often than not.

Still, to play devil&#039;s advocate, it sure seems like server technology totally fails to scale with the network and hardware requirements to support MMOs. Anytime you see a new zone or something open up in an MMO or something otherwise shiny that requires you being in one or two places, it&#039;s a slideshow. I can agree that partial responsibility falls on the developer to prepare as much as they can for these contingencies, but at the same time, without knowing dick about how the industry actually works I have a sense that the tech just isn&#039;t there to handle Johnny McMMOAddict and his 500+ friends in the same place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thankfully, the actual customers who patronize MMOs are actually speaking out about this kind of thing more often than not, and while you definitely have to sift through the usual nonsense to get to some legitimate points, launch stability is a greater and greater concern to players.</p>
<p>The companies are sort of getting it. They are definitely in a mode where they are thinking &#8220;if we release and it sucks ass, we&#8217;re fucked&#8221;, which is why you see more pushbacks more often than not.</p>
<p>Still, to play devil&#8217;s advocate, it sure seems like server technology totally fails to scale with the network and hardware requirements to support MMOs. Anytime you see a new zone or something open up in an MMO or something otherwise shiny that requires you being in one or two places, it&#8217;s a slideshow. I can agree that partial responsibility falls on the developer to prepare as much as they can for these contingencies, but at the same time, without knowing dick about how the industry actually works I have a sense that the tech just isn&#8217;t there to handle Johnny McMMOAddict and his 500+ friends in the same place.</p>
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		<title>By: sanyaweathers</title>
		<link>http://eatingbees.brokentoys.org/2008/06/02/see-wheels-are-round/#comment-1775</link>
		<dc:creator>sanyaweathers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jun 2008 02:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://eatingbees.wordpress.com/?p=71#comment-1775</guid>
		<description>Hrm. You&#039;re making a lot of sense, when you point out the mutually exclusive skill sets involved in the same job title.

However, I am now further emboldened to suggest my own former career track&#039;s solutions! Do you know what happens in a union shop when an actor picks up a hammer? For that matter, do you know what happens in a union shop when the badly paid, entry level people are forced to work for more than eight hours without a break?

See, because there are dozens of wannabees for every job, theater people could very easily be exploited... oh wait, that doesn&#039;t sound AT ALL familiar!

Sure, it gets taken too far, as all of us who ever sat and rotted in a cavernous convention center (waiting for the sole Authorized Cart Pusher to fetch the shipping crates) know. But actors with hammers are rarely safe or productive... and neither are the hacks with design document access.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hrm. You&#8217;re making a lot of sense, when you point out the mutually exclusive skill sets involved in the same job title.</p>
<p>However, I am now further emboldened to suggest my own former career track&#8217;s solutions! Do you know what happens in a union shop when an actor picks up a hammer? For that matter, do you know what happens in a union shop when the badly paid, entry level people are forced to work for more than eight hours without a break?</p>
<p>See, because there are dozens of wannabees for every job, theater people could very easily be exploited&#8230; oh wait, that doesn&#8217;t sound AT ALL familiar!</p>
<p>Sure, it gets taken too far, as all of us who ever sat and rotted in a cavernous convention center (waiting for the sole Authorized Cart Pusher to fetch the shipping crates) know. But actors with hammers are rarely safe or productive&#8230; and neither are the hacks with design document access.</p>
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